MICHIGAN ASSOCIATION OF RAILROAD PASSENGERS
MIDWEST HIGH SPEED RAIL ASSOCIATION
Joint Meeting
St. Joseph Public Library, St. Joseph, Michigan

August 16, 2008

Those Signing In: Hugh Gurney, Michael Frezell, June Troost, John Guidinger, Bob Tischbein, Hazel Rood, John Gottlick, Kay Chase, Jack Kessler, Jared Becker, Dwight Phillips, Jim Hinkins, J. R. Valderas, Diane Patterson, Robert Patterson, J. P. Des Camp, Roger Webster, Rich Vavra-Musser, John DeLora

Also Present: Rick Harnish, Midwest High Speed Rail Assn.; Juan Ganum, City of Niles; Nick Musson, Southwest Michigan Planning Commission; Robert Judd, Mayor, City of St. Joseph

Chairman DeLora called the meeting to order at 10:20 a.m. He thanked Vavra-Musser for the meeting arrangements.

Vavra-Musser introduced Robert Judd, Mayor of St. Joseph, who welcomed the group to the city. Judd expressed his desire to keep the Pere Marquette route open and initiate high speed rail service between St. Joseph and Chicago. He would appreciate anything MARP could do to further these objectives.

DeLora thanked Judd for his remarks and responded that MARP is on record as supporting continuation of Pere Marquette service no matter which way the high speed line is routed.

All in attendance introduced themselves.

Minutes of the June meeting in Owosso and the July meeting in Lapeer were reviewed and approved.

Second Pere Marquette: Because Amtrak has no excess equipment, the state of Michigan will have to rehabilitate damaged coaches at a cost of $200,000-$300,000 each, according to DeLora. A first approach will be to look for the funding from projects not completed in prior years. DeLora has asked Speaker Pro Tem Sak to check on how much might be available in such unexpended funds. If this approach is not fruitful, then we would then have to ask for additional money from the legislature. This is justified because Michigan trains are frequently sold out and there is no more capacity.

DeLora predicted that a second departure from Chicago around 11:00 a.m. connecting with numerous arriving trains and an evening departure from Grand Rapids would produce the most ridership, possibly 125% of the current Pere Marquette. However, an earlier departure would fit business schedules better. Other states are also planning to rehab cars, so we need to get in line. Cars can be rehabbed in about three months, so if the legislature acts, they could be in service by winter.

In response to a question from Vavra-Musser, DeLora indicated that resolutions from as many governmental bodies as possible would prod the legislature to act. Any cars rehabbed must be certified by Amtrak, so older coaches owned by Blue Water would not pass muster. DeLora responded to Mayor Judd by saying that Amtrak will operate any train that is paid for. He agreed with Judd that the ideal is to serve business.

Guest Speaker:

At this point, guest speaker Rick Harnish, President of the Midwest High Speed Rail Association entered the room and was introduced. He thanked all for their recent donations, which have made it possible for him to have an office separate from his residence. He then gave some background on MWHSRA, which was founded in 1993. At that time, Spain, France, Japan and Germany had at least one high speed line operating. The difficulty of implementing high speed rail in the United States has prompted the organization to resort to manageable objectives, such as having five daily trains operating from Chicago to Springfield in three hours or under. The concept is that if lobbyists were using the conventional trains, they would support high speed projects in the future. MWHSRA has been successful in getting funding for these five daily trains to Springfield plus one additional frequency to Carbondale and one to Quincy. Now the hope is to add trains to additional points in Illinois and to Grand Rapids.

According to Harnish, we need to take advantage of the upcoming change of administration in Washington. Because we will need as much support as possible, Harnish has helped form the Transit Riders Alliance, which now has an e-mail list of 35,000. This group has already demonstrated its effectiveness by barraging the Illinois governor with 1,600 e-mails protesting his proposal to slash Amtrak funding.

Now is the time for a huge expansion with as much as $200 million more expended on an expanded passenger rail system. If Amtrak is unwilling, METRA could run all Midwest trains.

One problem high speed rail faces in the U.S. is that the FRA prohibits high speed trains from operating on conventional tracks. In Europe, many high speed trains continue on conventional tracks direct to beaches, ski resorts and other destinations. Many began operation on conventional tracks through the cities until high speed lines were completed the entire distance of each route.

Harnish sees Spain as the model for the Midwest. That nation has a goal of having all points in Spain within three hours of Madrid. Harnish feels the Midwest’s goal should be similar – every major Midwest city within three hours travel time to Chicago by rail. In addition to high speed, Harnish visualizes a much expanded commuter rail network, with trains on many lines running as frequently as subway lines, similar to what Spain is doing.

Ganum commented that if high speed rail were available, Niles would be within commuting distance of Chicago. He feels the political will to make that possible is now there. DeLora and Phillips agreed that at the national level, they are seeing far more interest in passenger rail among Michigan’s federal delegation. Chase noted that more elected officials appeared pro-rail, but don’t seem to understand the implications of such a stand. Judd observed that from Michigan, we face bottlenecks in Indiana and Illinois. A second line into Chicago was torn out many years ago.

Vavra-Musser agreed that a high speed line from Porter, Indiana into Chicago would be a big improvement. DeLora responded that Amtrak had done a south of Lake Michigan study several years ago. Now Amtrak CEO Kummant sees a Chicago-Detroit high speed line as his showpiece, so action seems likely.

Harnish added that support from Mayor Daley is critical. Unfortunately, Illinois state government is dysfunctional at this time, so transportation improvements tied to a bid for the Olympics are unlikely. The proposed acquisition of the Elgin, Joliet and Eastern Railroad by CN has also poisoned relationships with many suburban communities.

Harnish recommended that Michigan supporters develop a proposal for additional rail service in Michigan, a proposal that was specific enough for people to support, but not so specific that people would get lost in the details. The proposal would be something that could be accomplished in one year. It would build on routes that a public entity had already expended money on. He suggested that it be part of the ninestate Midwest High Speed Rail Plan. He recommended that the first Michigan proposal ask Michigan state legislators to fund one additional train on each route and ask Michigan’s federal legislators to fund the Porter-Chicago high speed line. He would urge Michigan to double its annual support from $7 million annually to $14 million. Some of this appropriation could go for more rolling stock. At the federal level, we would also ask for more equipment. When the first proposal is accomplished, we would then come up with a second proposal, then a third one year proposal.

Harnish suggested that supporters take every opportunity to attend political fundraisers and keep asking the question, “What about more trains?” If they keep hearing from constituents and receiving small donations from them, they will feel that there are votes out there supporting more trains. We need to talk about our proposal at every opportunity and put together a video to aid those for whom public speaking is not easy.

To all elected officials, we should be ready to ask, “Will you support _________________? Will you put that in writing”? Persuade them to introduce or co-sponsor a bill containing your proposal. When the bill goes to the conference committee, let the members of the conference committee know that it has a lot of support. This may require hiring a lobbyist.

Guidinger recalled that MARP did have a lobbyist at one time. He wondered if we could go together with TRU on hiring such a person.

In response to a question from the floor, Harnish agreed that the relationship between Amtrak and the states must change, with the states having more voice. Illinois has a large enough state supported system that they can negotiate with Amtrak from a position of strength. Also, MWHSPA can now afford a lobbyist, who can be at the table.

DeLora suggested an e-mail forwarding service which could keep in contact with legislators. According to Harnish, such a service would cost about $400 per month.

As to what is available for capital improvements from the federal government, $30 million can be expended this year on low cost, sure fire proposals. $100 million is proposed for next year.

In response to Mayor Judd’s concern about initiating commuter service from St. Joseph to Chicago, Harnish acknowledged that state lines complicate the issue. The three states involved must cooperate.

Returning to the issue of a lobbyist, Harnish reported that MWHSRA was paying $24,000 annually for one who also worked for an organization known as the Campaign for A Popular Vote. This lobbyist will be spending more time in Lansing and MARP should stay in touch with him. We need to push passenger trains as a #1 priority. Michigan already has a plan. Now is the time to say, let’s do this this year. Guidinger agreed and urged that we stick to promoting our proposal without beating up on others.

In promoting proposals for trains, Harnish urged that we stress cost effectiveness. Bringing a four lane highway into Galena, Illinois, the cost would be $1 billion. Four trains a day would cost $400,000. We need to talk about energy independence and all alternatives to the automobile, including trains and walking.

Vavra-Musser agreed and stated the alternative was a huge increase in gasoline taxes. One reason for the increase in oil prices is that North Sea production has started down. We need to change the “drill, drill, drill” message. Most of the oil being talked about is speculation – discoveries have not been confirmed. Easy to get oil and easy to get coal are gone. India and China are just getting started, added DeLora. Harnish urged coordination with transit in developing a statewide public transportation plan.

Harnish is trying to get high speed rail into the Obama strategy. He sees nothing positive concerning rail with McCain. In response to Guidinger’s concern about the bad name Amtrak has in some circles, Harnish urged that we keep the Amtrak name out of our discussions and proposals.

Wrapping up, Harnish stressed the need to develop a simple, affordable proposal that can be accomplished within a year or two. We need to then move it to passage by talking to and gaining the support of the people who interact with state legislators, the governor, and our federal representatives. We need to lobby. We need to get the message in the newspapers. We need to get candidates for state and federal offices supporting it. We need to attend political fundraisers and ask questions. In developing and pushing our proposal, we must stress the need, and not worry about the how . If Amtrak can’t run the trains, maybe the freight railroads can be paid to run them. What we need to stress is that we want a workable system.

DeLora suggested that we first review our vision, then develop the proposal. Harnish offered the following steps:

Always show the state plan, the end product

Then offer the next step to the state plan

Point out the key problem, Chicago-Porter

Then note the second problem, Kalamazoo-East

Stress the need for rolling stock

Indicate what can be done right now

When talking to state legislators, point out what they can do and what the federal government needs to do. Ask state legislators to call their federal counterparts and demand Congressional action where needed. To Harnish, the ideal would be trains on all Michigan routes arriving in Chicago by 8:00 – 8:30 a.m.

Particularly when we talk about the national system, we need to support long distance trains as well as those running 400 mile trips. The most reasonable way to get frequent service Chicago-Cleveland is to have four Chicago-New York trains daily. We need to stress that a train is not a plane on the ground, but can connect many intermediate points.

In concluding, DeLora thanked Harnish for all his advice and urged that he join others for lunch at the St. Joseph station. The meeting adjourned at 12:30 p.m.

Respectfully submitted:

Hugh D. Gurney, Secretary

Approved:

John DeLora, Chair

MICHIGAN ASSOCIATION OF RAILROAD PASSENGERS

July 12, 2008

Those signing in: Hugh Gurney, Leonard D. Barry, Roger Webster, Dave Randall, John D. Langdon, Bob Tischbein, Rich Vavra-Musser, Jim Slater, Dick Pekarek, Bruce Swizzer, Jim Hinkins, Jim Wallington, Clark Charnetski, Robert Patterson, Dianne Patterson, Ken Henry, Kay Chase, Barry Boyce, Andrew Kent, Don Monteith, J. R. Valeras

Also present: Mike Bagwell, President, Great Lakes Central Railroad

Vice-Chair Don Monteith called the meeting to order at 10:00 a.m. Those in attendance were asked to introduce themselves.

Guest Speaker: Monteith then introduced Mike Bagwell, CEO of the Great Lakes Central Railroad, who briefed the group on the status of WALLY, the proposed Howell-Ann Arbor commuter rail service. The concept really comes from the City of Ann Arbor, which feels it has no additional space to park automobiles. About eighteen months ago, an informal coalition was formed to explore commuter rail. The state of Michigan and the director of MDOT and his staff have been very supportive. As a member of the coalition, Bagwell has been dealing with railroad operations. He favors starting with a low budget and has stated that he thinks a viable commuter service could be initiated for around $7 million.

The coalition’s consultant, R. L. Banks & Associates, favors a more expansive operation and is estimating the start up cost to be around $32 million. Representatives from R. L. Banks will be back in the area on August 6 & 7 to go over the plan with the Commissioners of Washtenaw and Livingston counties.

Bagwell admits that cities like Dallas have a really beautiful commuter rail system , but he thinks we need to crawl before we walk. In any event, he thinks Great Lakes Central would be able to begin commuter operations within 120 days of the date they get the word from the Coalition to proceed. Right now, an affiliated firm is working on 37 commuter coaches in Wisconsin. Some are being rehabilitated for Dallas and Chicago, but twelve would be held for WALLY service. Five cars currently stored in Cadillac have been severely vandalized. All are commuter cars, not Amtrak coaches. If given the go ahead, GLC would probably lease 4-5 remanufactured Amtrak locomotives.

GLC service begins at Milepost 45 on the old Ann Arbor Railroad, which is several miles north of the center of Ann Arbor. The management of the current Ann Arbor Railroad, has been resistant to operating commuter service. Bagwell stated that any arm twisting to get the Ann Arbor Railroad to change its stance will have to be done by others, not him.

Some have proposed running passenger service all the way to Traverse City. It could cost as much as $250 million to initiate such service. Strong political support would be needed.

As a general rule, Bagwell feels that passenger and freight service on the same rails do not mix well. Passengers need reliable service. At the Ann Pere diamond, where GLC crosses CSX, the current signal operates on a first come, first serve basis. Passengers might have to wait there for a CSX freight train to pass. Currently, GLC interchanges freight with the Ann Arbor Railroad at Ann Arbor, with CSX at Ann Pere and with CN at Durand.

Bagwell concluded by saying that he feels passenger trains on GlLC could run at up to 59 miles per hour except at crossings without all the bells and whistles called for by R. L. Banks. Can we afford a Cadillac at this time?

In response to a question from Charnetski, Bagwell stated that some gas tax money could go for parking lots, crossing gates and other warning devices. To access any funding, a rail authority needs to be established to make binding decisions, request funding and issue contracts. The authority would have to make the contract with GLC to operate the trains.

In response to a question from Robert Patterson, Bagwell stated that Terri Blackwell of the Washtenaw Area Transportation Study, Howell City Manager Shea Charles and Ann Arbor Transportation Planner Eli Cooper were the point people for the project.

In response to questions from Robert Patterson and Jim Slater, Bagwell confirmed that people had discussed the project with officials of the Ann Arbor Railroad and that their concerns center around liability. As to when service could begin, some are saying 2008, but the Mayor of Ann Arbor feels 2009 is a better bet.

In response to Langdon’s question about how MARP can help move this project along, Bagwell stated that the creation of a Transit Authority with taxing authority was key.

The governor prefers to work with a Transit Authority. As to the key person in getting the Authority going, Bagwell felt it would be Terri Blackwell. According to Bagwell, the paperwork has been done, but it needs to be implemented. Once created, the Authority could begin to hire staff.

Bagwell indicated that SEMCOG has taken no position on WALLY. WALLY keeps SEMCOG informed of progress, but has had no reaction one way or the other.

Bagwell stated that he felt the ridership projections were as accurate as possible. A new bridge across the Huron River at Ann Arbor is not planned at this time. However, GLC would be interested in taking over the Ypsilanti-Kalamazoo portion of Norfolk Southern.

If that happened, a connection at Ann Arbor would be in order.

Gurney recommended that the WALLY Coalition work to bring the commuter service into downtown Ann Arbor. Bagwell responded that the Ann Arbor Railroad has valid concerns over liability, which could run as high as $200 million as the commuter trains would be crossing a major bridge. Attorneys for WALLY are researching the liability issue. The Rail Authority will have to at least share liability.

Ken Henry noted that getting people out of their cars is a major issue. The Ann Arbor Transportation Authority has contracted with Indian Trails to provide commuter service from Chelsea to Ann Arbor. To date, daily ridership is 27. AATA is also looking into a commuter bus run from Canton into Ann Arbor.

Wallington stated that part of the problem is little or no coordination at the MDOT level to promote various public transportation modes. Monteith added that he felt a statewide transportation authority was needed. A Constitutional Convention would be needed to implement that. Jim Slater agreed that a coordinated statewide transportation vision is needed. Rail transportation is for the public convenience as much as highways.

Monteith noted that the Traverse City area is in the process of creating a six county transportation authority. The community was able to move $3 million from an aborted bridge project to pay for the Traverse City Grand Vision study. This group is currently talking to Mike Bagwell, whose railroad serves the area.

A motion was made by Monteith to urge creation of a Livingston-Washtenaw Bi-County Transportation Authority. With an amendment that Charnetski would serve as MARP liaison to the Authority with Gurney as his assistant, the motion was seconded by Langdon and passed.

The discussion then moved to how MARP can best assist freight railroads. Bagwell felt that some type of rail banking was critical, so that not all little used rail lines are turned into bikeways. In many cases, the real value of many short lines is its salvage value. Slater suggested that any abandoned rail line go into a rail bank for at least 25 years. Langdon recommended we table discussion until we can consult with NARP on their experience and make the issue an agenda item for next month.

As to new business for freight railroads, Chase asked about bio-fuel plants. Bagwell responded that a proposed plant at Ithaca is at a standstill due to lack of capital. A second plant has also been proposed on the Great Lakes Central line. Further discussion of freight congestion, Porter-Chicago; better connections between Great Lakes Central and Norfolk Southern and passenger-freight conflict led Langdon to recommend that MARP establish a liaison with the Executive Director of the Michigan Association of Railroads.

Robert Patterson agreed to serve as that liaison.

In response to a question from Slater, Bagwell confirmed that funds currently exist for improving freight rail capacity. As to charter service, there has been discussion with another operator about a dinner train and passenger excursions out of Mt. Pleasant. The Northern Arrow trip this summer is doubtful.

Michigan Flyer:

Ken Henry of Indian Trails briefed the group on this issue. More than a year ago, Indian Trails instituted the Michigan Flyer scheduled bus service from East Lansing, Lansing and Jackson to the Detroit Metro Airport. The Airport Authority permitted signing at Smith Terminal, but not at McNamara. About a year ago, when Ann Arbor was added to the Michigan Flyer schedule, the Airport Authority claimed that this service was in conflict with a limousine service contracted by them to serve Ann Arbor. Indian Trails was advised that if they dropped service to Ann Arbor, the problem would go away. Indian Trails contends that bus and limousine services are entirely different and should not be in conflict.

In late June, 2008, the Airport Authority announced that they were moving the Michigan Flyer stop to the opposite side of the roadway from the terminals, but would not put this in writing. The suggested new location required passengers to disembark right into the traffic. No provision was made for wheelchairs. Gordon MacKay, President of Indian Trails, has been attempting without success to set up a meeting to discuss the issue. As of July 12, Detroit Metro Airport is saying they will relocate Michigan Flyer to a different undisclosed location as of August 4. Meanwhile, all other buses are permitted to stop at more convenient locations. Michigan Flyer does pay the airport $10 per passenger to board and disembark at the airport, so fees should not be a problem. FAA says that airport authorities have the right to establish fees and designate spaces for public transportation, but not prohibit such service.

Henry feels this issue may wind up in court. He urged MARP to use whatever influence it has to help resolve the issue.

All agreed that Indian Trails was providing a valuable transportation service that should be continued. Gurney suggested contacting TRU and the Sierra Club to get them involved. It was decided that Chase would draft letters of concern to those who appoint the Airport Authority Board and that Vavra-Musser would finalize and send these letters. Most members of the Airport Authority are appointed by the Wayne County Executive, Robert Ficano. Two are appointed by the Governor. MacKay has been in contact with John Conners, one of the Governor’s appointees.

Review of Minutes: Postponed until the August meeting.

Treasurer’s Report: According to Treasurer Dave Randall, MARP had $6,055.88 in the checking account as of June 30, 2008 and the Pratt Fund was valued at $13, 676.40. As to budget performance, we are pretty much on target except for hospitality, where we have expended over twice the budgeted amount. Our operating ratio is 51.12%. Dues for membership in the Environmental Council will be paid in August. The Treasurer’s Report was approved.

Regional Coordinator Reports:

East/Central: Wallington reported that the Bluewater Promotion Committee is scheduled to meet in August. He thanked Pekarek for arranging today’s meeting.

Northern: Charter trips to Northern Michigan are still up in the air, according to Kent.

West: Westrain continues to provide imput to the MITRAIN website, Langdon reported.

For the Pere Marquette, ridership is up 8% and revenue is up 30%, as more people are paying for higher priced buckets. Amtrak plans to increase fares in all buckets by 5% this fall.

In response to a query from Vavra-Musser on how Michigan can capture some of this additional revenue, Langdon suggested that the issue be taken up with MDOT.

Metro: Hinkins reported that the pre-engineering study for the Woodward Avenue light rail line should be completed by the end of the year. A Vision Statement is expected by the end of September. SEMCOG continues to move at its usual pace on the Ann Arbor-Detroit commuter rail line. Plans for the bikeway along the abandoned Dequindre cut rail line in Detroit are proceeding from Jefferson Avenue north, but the right of way near the center city will be left open for commuter rail. The proposed bikeway will connect with the bridge to bridge river walk along the Detroit River.

Charnetski commented that planning for a new Amtrak station in Dearborn is proceeding. Robert Patterson asked that MARP not loose sight of the 3.5 acre tract in Troy that is supposed to be dedicated for a transportation center.

Old Business:

Membership: Vavra-Musser reported that 37 renewals have come in as a result of the reminder notice. He is working on a corporate membership proposal which he will present next month. He is checking with both the Ohio Association of Railroad Passengers and the Midwest High Speed Rail on their corporate membership structure.

Ohio lists sponsors in their newsletter.

In response to a query from Langdon, Randall responded that he did not think such listings would interfere with MARP’s non-profit status.

Communications: Chase urged all present to contact members of Congress who supported S.R. 6003, the Amtrak Reauthorization Bill, thank them, and urge them to push for final passage. We should also contact those who voted against the bill and continue urging them to change their stance. We also need to thank state Senator Basham for introducing Senate Resolution 200 urging greater Amtrak capacity and ask members of the Senate Appropriations Committee to act on it. She informed the group as to who were members of the Senate Appropriations Committee.

Newsletter: Valderas apologized for the delay in getting the summer edition of The Michigan Passenger out on schedule due to his flooded basement. It is now at the printer and should hit the streets in about two weeks. He asked Hinkins to take over distribution of the papers Whims used to distribute. He urged immediate distribution as the registration for the Annual Meeting is included in this issue. Kent, Monteith and Patterson agreed to help with distribution in Northern Michigan if the Northern Arrow trip materializes. Monteith will look into lodging for Patterson.

Gurney suggested adding the Algoma Central Station in Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario, to the distribution list. Ken Henry agreed to help distribute newsletters at Indian Trails sites.

Route Enhancement: Gurney reported that he had been tracking the WALLY and Michigan Flyer issues, discussed earlier. He discussed a recent visit to the airport and the paucity of public transportation and its lack of any signage whatsoever. Only employees seem to be aware of the existence of one SMART route. Hinkins wondered if SMART Route 220 could be extended to the airport. Patterson and Wallington agreed that more publicity was needed. Langdon expressed the fear that Detroit Metro might now allow access to buses connecting with the proposed Ann Arbor-Detroit commuter rail line. Has anyone really talked to the airport about this?

Monteith shared a letter MDOT Director Kirk Steudle had sent to Senator Jason Allen indicating that his agency would not be able to fund an extension of the Indian Trails Lansing-Boyne City bus to Charlevoix.

Public Affairs: Langdon continues to work for support of Senator Basham’s resolution urging additional routes and capacity for Amtrak in Michigan. A petition is to be circulated to all mayors in Michigan urging support for the resolution. He asked all MARP members to follow up on this effort. A lobbyist for the Midwest High Speed Rail Association spent a day in Lansing recently pushing additional trains on all routes. MARP favors pushing for a second Pere Marquette frequency first. Michigan House Bill 5008 appropriating $6.9 million for Amtrak in 2009 is now in conference committee. No immediate issues are anticipated. This will not cover funding for a second Pere Marquette.

Wallington asked about the Statewide Transit Vision being circulated. It is unclear who drafted it. Perhaps the Let’s Get Moving group. Langdon urged that MARP get its vision into this document. Wallington and Gurney agreed to follow up.

Outreach: Frezell reviewed upcoming events where MARP hopes to have a table. Gurney and Tischbein will cover the July 20 show in Redford. For the Crossroads Village-Huckleberry Railroad show, Whims and Ward will staff the table on Saturday, August 2 and Pekarek and Gurney will assist on Sunday, August 3.

New Business:

Annual Meeting: The meeting will take place on Saturday, September 20 at 10:00 a.m.at the Durand Union Station in Durand. Wallington agreed to work with Don Westcott, President of Durand Union Station, on details including food. Chase will attempt to secure a speaker.

Upcoming Meetings: The next meeting will be on Saturday, August 16, at 10:15 a.m. at the Public Library in St. Joseph. Vavra-Musser is trying to get a speaker from the Midwest High Speed Rail Association.

The meeting schedule is:

August 16 Public Library St. Joseph 10:15 a.m.

September 20 Durand Union Station Durand 10:00 a.m.

October 18 TBA Kalamazoo 11:00 a.m.

November 15 TBA Dearborn 10:00 a.m.

Other Business:

Robert Patterson handed out a proposal for a Lottery for Transit for discussion at the next meeting.

Hinkins agreed to provide maps of all rail lines abandoned since 2002 at the next meeting. -7-

Charnetski described how helpful Amtrak personnel were when his son took ill on a recent trip from Chicago to Ann Arbor.

Adjournment: The meeting adjourned at 12:15 p.m.

Respectfully submitted,

Hugh D. Gurney, Secretary

Approved:

John DeLora, Chair